Curse

Fay Vert · Apr 08, 2009, 11:45 PM // 23:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by FengShuiDove

There was an excellent, EXCELLENT study done on this using a 55 SoJ vs. 55 SV. You ought to search for the thread, as it seems to be quite conclusive. I won't spoil the apparent results for you, but it's something else

.

...

EDIT: It was SoJ, not SS, and here's the link:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10225077

Now read the thread again and engage your brain, it is anything but conclusive.

That thread did NOT address rate of kill. Both farming methods had a similar kill rate. That thread is often wheeled out as a counter to rate of kill and it absolutely is not.

Also, nobody I am aware of has ever reproduced the effect, and I tried a lot.

Here is proof of rate of kill (in the same thread)

Coraline Jones · Apr 09, 2009, 01:00 AM // 01:00

Loot scaling was implemented because basically solo farmers were getting approximately 800% more gold over time than regular players. Most of the money came from gold coins and crappy whites... The latter which would be instantly merched/salvaged for an easy gold return.

This caused gold farmers to basically run the entire game. NPC traders for runes and materials would have outrageous prices because gold was so worthless.

What this does is slant the entire game toward the veteran player and screws over any new gamer. No new player wants to step into Ascalon City for the first time and see that his armor is going to cost like 20,000 gold pieces for materials when he's only getting loot that's worth like 20 gold per drop. That's basically telling all new players to deinstall and never come back.

Guild Wars makes almost all of its money on selling accounts to people. Since ArenaNet says that they are removing hundreds of accounts each week for illegal activity, the assumption is that at least that number of accounts are being rebought because Xfire doesn't show much of a loss of gamers playing the game. Whether you want to believe me or not is fine, but I think all of us would agree that there's no way that the majority of Guild Wars's income is coming from veteran players buying extra character slots or the Game of the Year Upgrade package.

Loot scaling nerfs farming runs so farmers could continue to get rare drops, but not a ton of easy money (i.e., gold coins and crap whites). This had the side effect of killing the rare market, but that's another story.

Whether or not this was the best solution or not is besides the point. The bottom line is that Guild Wars is friendly to new players and that's the real source of money. Loot scaling has almost no affect (if any) on the PvP culture of the game, so it doesn't affect Guild Wars's most important feature. Finally, older PvE players can whine all they want, but they keep playing anyway. For all of these reasons, ArenaNet is never going to remove loot scaling and you can forget wishing for it.

DarklingKiller · Apr 09, 2009, 01:15 AM // 01:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Metal

The way I see it is this:

Loot scaling is better because it doesn't affect the things most sought after, especially for farming: event items, rare mats, golds, greens, collector items. Just affects white junky crap and money.

The way it used to work was a gradual decline across the board while farming, to the point where you were in a huge pit and got nothing for long periods, and had to work to 'reset' anti-farm code (this is what it was called, and what loot scaling replaced) by doing mundane stuff you didn't really care to be doing.

Also, there's virtually no Ebay market for selling in-game goods. More the opposite way, sites selling in-game gold for money (which we all know is bad and abuses human rights of all those poor chinese farmers chained to their puters).

If you are looking to see if you can get rich, forget it, the ship of farming for riches sailed long, long ago. If you are looking to see if farming is easily done and nets lots of nice items, then yes by all means go for it.

The ability to farm, with pve skills, controllable heroes (to clear the area), perma sins, with loot-scaling, farming has never been easier. This point directly refutes your friend's suggestion.

This guy is smart. A few months ago, the three ways to get rich from farming were-

A) Endless Grind
B) Farm items related to titles (Elite Tomes, Sweets, Alcohol)
C) Ectos, Shards, and Armbraces

Anything else was virtually a waste of time.

Obrien Xp · Apr 09, 2009, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enchanted Warrior

To show I'm not just a complainer. I think with a few tweaks GW could outdo Warcraft. Gorgeous graphics, compelling storyline, what we really need is a total revamp on loot and rewards.

One word, just one word: GW2

Back on topic:
I came in on Jan 2, 2008, I have no idea what happened before that so I also seem to have entered just as the glory days of pug's was drawing to a close (good alliance fixes all that).

Both high and low lvl mobs have the same drop rate for Golds and Grapes though the quality of those are differentiated by the mob lvl.

I know I screwed that all up but that's all I can say.

Riceboi · Apr 09, 2009, 03:27 AM // 03:27

a big part of this game died when farming died and i'm talking about way before loot scaling.

sad really

Chthon · Apr 09, 2009, 03:49 AM // 03:49

It seems that very few people in this thread understand how loot scaling works. It also doesn't help that the wiki entry is not correct.

In this thread, Nechtan Thaumaturge puts together a credible, coherent, and logical explanation of loot scale that accounts for the results of statistical testing done by Skinny Corpse on rate of kill and tmakinen on the entry effect. I very strongly suggest that anyone who wants to comment on loot scale should read that thread before shooting your mouth off and making a fool of yourself.

A short summary for the "too-long, didn't read" crowd: Loot scale places a limit on the gold-from-the-merchant-value per unit time you can get through drops. Once you've reached the limit, loot scale kicks in and prevents you from getting any white, blue, purple drops until enough time has passed that you are under the limit again. What happens in practice is that you get a drop, then loot scale kicks in for awhile, then it wears off and you get a drop, then loot scale kicks in for awhile, then it wears off and you get a drop, rinse and repeat.

Martin Alvito · Apr 09, 2009, 05:10 AM // 05:10

Killing farming didn't kill the game. It just had severe distributional consequences that drove a good chunk of the most creative PvE-ers away. The power traders were already making more money per unit of time, but hammering the early farms just widened the gap.

Loot scaling is great for the new player in Ascalon but terrible for the new player in the Desert and beyond. By that point, your drops still aren't worth anything, so you can afford necessities but no desirable shinies. Loot scaling and the inscription system condemn non-farmers to a subsistence living in PvE.

With that said, today a player of any sophistication can make a ton of money quickly with overpowered event farming.

The rune trader had ridiculous prices early on because the code used to re-evaluate prices was flawed, not because of an influx of bot farmed gold. The margins were so wide that no player would ever sell to the trader (it was worth the time to resell on the market), but impatient players would buy. Result? Permanent inflation.

Cab Tastic · Apr 09, 2009, 09:32 AM // 09:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by FengShuiDove

There was an excellent, EXCELLENT study done on this using a 55 SoJ vs. 55 SV. You ought to search for the thread, as it seems to be quite conclusive. I won't spoil the apparent results for you, but it's something else

.

As far as the benefit of lootscaling, well, you don't collect as much in gold or certain other items if you solo, and that's about it. The value has to come from what you're farming, not *necessarily* the quantity of the kill or the rate of kill (though those can definitely contribute to a farm's effectiveness). The idea is to encourage team play without killing solo farming, hence the comparison of what's affected vs. what's not.

EDIT: It was SoJ, not SS, and here's the link:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10225077

I'm talking about rate of kill. This isn't relevant.

Rate of kill is pretty easy to prove even if you don't farm. All you need to do is clear a zone slower (with a full party) and you'll notice the difference.

Enchanted Warrior · Apr 10, 2009, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Well last night my friend and I did Rragars menagerie. And we both got a worthless gemstone out of the chest, and tons of useless white junk from all the mobs.

I am not happy, but I also know GW doesn't care if I am. If anyone reading this is thinking about buying the games, if you do not care about rewards, buy it, if you do care, don't.

]HM[ Sabre Wolf · Apr 10, 2009, 10:04 PM // 22:04

Not sure about this loot scaling.. because me and my farming buddy in 2-3 trips get a combined 10 golds, 3 Lockpicks, 1 Black Dye and several Attunements and Radiants... making about a combined 10-13k every 20 minutes...

However... when I 600 alot in CoF... I wont get a gold or a purple the entire run somtimes... not even a gold from the the chest at the end... (2 diamonds once)...

Savio · Apr 10, 2009, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enchanted Warrior

Well last night my friend and I did Rragars menagerie. And we both got a worthless gemstone out of the chest, and tons of useless white junk from all the mobs.

You know, if you want people to discuss that, you should probably not name your thread "Loot scaling", as this isn't loot scaling. Do we have to go over the definition of loot scaling every time someone talks about drops?

Enchanted Warrior · Apr 11, 2009, 12:16 AM // 00:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

It seems that very few people in this thread understand how loot scaling works. It also doesn't help that the wiki entry is not correct.

Has GW ever said how it works, if so where is it posted?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

You know, if you want people to discuss that, you should probably not name your thread "Loot scaling", as this isn't loot scaling. Do we have to go over the definition of loot scaling every time someone talks about drops?

It increases pageviews which increases your Ad potential and potential Ad revenue, the need for moderators, etc.. Otherwise the entire forum could be 5 stickies and not have any members :P

Chthon · Apr 11, 2009, 03:18 AM // 03:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enchanted Warrior

Has GW ever said how it works, if so where is it posted?

Yes, Gaile did give an explanation at the time it was implemented. That explanation was later proven to be unequivocally false.

Players (farmers mostly) have been collecting statistical data on drops, and the only theory that is fully consistent with their empirical findings is the one by Nechtan Thaumaturge that I linked to earlier. Barring some unexpected new data, it's safe to say that s/he's correct, and anyone who says differently is not. Now go read his post.

FoxBat · Apr 11, 2009, 03:52 AM // 03:52

His test took two builds with not radically different kill rates on small groups. While the syncing method is the best, the builds and locations he chose weren't.

Enchanted Warrior · Apr 11, 2009, 05:52 AM // 05:52

To keep the staff pleased, I'm branching this off to a new question in keeping with the original premise.

With the advent of loot scaling many have said loot in general went down, be it drops from mobs or from chests. Me personally, the chests I have encountered in the wild (requiring either a key or lock pick, or treasure in NF) have generally yielded purple junk not worth keeping and generally only worth salvaging into crafting materials. It should be stated I do not do chest runs. I fight through and area, if a key or lock pick drops I use it, if I find a treasure chest or dungeon chest at the end of a mission I pray and open it.

Tonight I got a gloom shield req 10 tactics, from a dungeon chest, a platinum wand from a dungeon chest req 11 divine, and as a drop a max dmg platinum bow, req 12 marks. My friend got an Platinum Ingneous blade req13 from the dungeon chest!!! *sigh* Shouldn't Platinum be max stats and perfect? Well as it was explained to me, the system is not very sophisticated and cannot be set to produce perfect items on demand, it happens when it happens. It is working as designed.

So is it working as intended and it's supposed to produce junk 99.9% of the time or is it broken? What do you think?

immortius · Apr 11, 2009, 07:09 AM // 07:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enchanted Warrior

Shouldn't Platinum be max stats and perfect?

Isn't platinum just a skin name? No reason it should be perfect any more than a longbow or anything else.

Enchanted Warrior · Apr 11, 2009, 06:55 PM // 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Yes, Gaile did give an explanation at the time it was implemented. That explanation was later proven to be unequivocally false.

Players (farmers mostly) have been collecting statistical data on drops, and the only theory that is fully consistent with their empirical findings is the one by Nechtan Thaumaturge that I linked to earlier. Barring some unexpected new data, it's safe to say that s/he's correct, and anyone who says differently is not. Now go read his post.

It helps prove one point I have maintained for many years. Computers cannot randomize. Any programmer with a few years experience knows this. Random is a concept not a fact. So it follows the gw loot system can easily be manipulated. Good read, thanks!

Savio · Apr 11, 2009, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enchanted Warrior

To keep the staff pleased, I'm branching this off to a new question in keeping with the original premise.

With the advent of loot scaling many have said loot in general went down, be it drops from mobs or from chests. Me personally, the chests I have encountered in the wild (requiring either a key or lock pick, or treasure in NF) have generally yielded purple junk not worth keeping and generally only worth salvaging into crafting materials.

That's still not loot scaling, and I could care less what you do. I only said that if you wanted answers, not talking about loot scaling would help. It's a lost cause at this point.

Quote:

So is it working as intended and it's supposed to produce junk 99.9% of the time or is it broken? What do you think?

The loot system has always produced crap items 99.9% of the time. The only thing that's changed is the definition of a crap item. Having gold text and a nice skin doesn't cut it anymore.

Quote:

It helps prove one point I have maintained for many years. Computers cannot randomize. Any programmer with a few years experience knows this. Random is a concept not a fact. So it follows the gw loot system can easily be manipulated.

I laughed.

Enchanted Warrior · Apr 11, 2009, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

That's still not loot scaling, and I could care less what you do. I only said that if you wanted answers, not talking about loot scaling would help. It's a lost cause at this point.

True dat, I was hoping this might put it to rest. As you said "Oh god not another.." or words to that effect

As for "I laughed", long running discussion with my programming pals. Computers cannot randomize, when you write the code to make it "randomize" you are making a set rule for it to follow, so it cannot be considered random QED. :P

Fay Vert · Apr 11, 2009, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enchanted Warrior

As for "I laughed", long running discussion with my programming pals. Computers cannot randomize, when you write the code to make it "randomize" you are making a set rule for it to follow, so it cannot be considered random QED. :P

Anyone who knows computing or random numbers well enough will know that it is rather trivial for a computer to generate an extremely good representation of a random number. Any number that is imposible to predict can be effectively considered random, and computers have been doing that for a very long time. There is a lot of mature mathematics underlying this.

The difference between true random and pseudo-random is beyond the ability of humans to detect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert R. Coveyou

The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance